ADJUSTED
ADJUSTED
Rewiring the Brain: From Downward to Upward Spiral with Alex Korb
What happens in your brain after a workplace injury? When physical pain meets anxiety, sleep disruption, and the stress of uncertain recovery, it can trigger a neurological downward spiral that feels impossible to escape. But neuroscience offers powerful insights into breaking this cycle.
In this fascinating conversation with Dr. Alex Korb, neuroscientist, anxiety coach at UCLA, and author of "The Upward Spiral," we explore the brain circuits that drive our emotional responses to injury and the science-backed strategies that can reverse negative patterns. Dr. Korb explains how our brains create habitual responses to stress and why self-criticism—a strategy that may have served us well throughout our careers—often becomes our biggest obstacle during recovery.
You'll discover why acknowledging emotions is crucial (hint: ignored feelings don't disappear, they manifest physically), how setting tiny goals creates dramatic chemical changes in the brain, and why your emotional sensitivity might actually be your greatest strength. Dr. Korb uses the brilliant analogy of a Ferrari versus a Camry to illustrate why your emotionally responsive brain isn't broken—it just needs different handling techniques.
For workers' compensation professionals, this episode offers invaluable insights into supporting injured workers through both physical and emotional recovery. For anyone struggling with anxiety, pain, or setbacks, Dr. Korb provides practical, accessible strategies drawn from cutting-edge neuroscience that can help transform recovery from a downward spiral into an upward one. The journey begins with understanding that your brain's response makes perfect sense—and small changes can create remarkable results.
Season 9 is brought to you by Berkley Industrial Comp. This episode is hosted by Greg Hamlin and guest co-host Matt Yehling, Directory of Claims at Midwest Employers Casualty.
Visit the Berkley Industrial Comp blog for more!
Got questions? Send them to marketing@berkleyindustrial.com
For music inquiries, contact Cameron Runyan at camrunyan9@gmail.com
Hello everyone and welcome to Adjusted. I'm your host, greg Hamlin, coming at you, as always, from beautiful Birmingham, alabama, where it's a little bit too hot. I think we've reached the point that my northern blood can handle, so if you're down here, just watch out, stay inside or get in the water. That's pretty hot. I think we've been hitting close to 100 every day now with humidity. That's pretty intense. So, anyway, I'm excited to share this rebroadcast with you.
Greg Hamlin:This is one of the rebroadcasts that I've probably thought about the most over the last couple years, and it was an episode I did with Alex Korb, who's actually a behavioral researcher and wrote the book the Upward Spiral, and I found it fascinating, especially as we think about our injured workers and we want to believe that their physical injuries are very separate from their probably stress, anxiety, all the other things that they're dealing with in their life, when really those things, when we look at them holistically, impact each other pretty closely. So anyhow, I hope you enjoy this as much as I did. I found this fascinating. I've thought about it a lot since then and I do love that. Alex says that I'm driving. I think he said a Ferrari, so I'm not, but comparing my personality. So, anyway, very fun episode. Hope you enjoy it as much as I do. And, as always, remember, do right, think differently and don't forget to care.
Greg Hamlin:Welcome to Adjusted. I'm your host, greg Hamlin, coming at you from beautiful Birmingham, alabama, and with me is my co-host for the day, matt Yaling. Matt, do you want to introduce yourself for everyone?
Matthew Yehling:Hello, this is Matthew Yaling, with Midwest Employers Casualty. I'm joining you from St Louis, missouri, along the banks of the mighty Mississippi.
Greg Hamlin:Always glad to have you, matt. We've done a number of these and definitely excited for this guest we have with us today, dr Alex Korb, phd in neuroscientists and author of the book Upward Spiral. Alex, if you want to introduce yourself to our guests, that'd be awesome.
Alex Korb:Hi. Yeah, I'm a neuroscientist and anxiety coach as well. I teach at UCLA and in my coaching practice I help smart, purpose-driven professionals get past unnecessary anxiety and mood issues. But yeah, I'm excited to talk with you today about neuroscience. And I'm right, by the banks of the not-so-mighty LA River, Is there any water in that? There's a, there's a trickle, Although I'm told I read an article that when the LA river is full at max capacity, it's so efficient at getting water out that it actually can carry as much water as the Mississippians at St Louis right.
Matthew Yehling:So hopefully you get to see that soon enough, right.
Alex Korb:Yeah, I, we like we had the atmospheric river, so it was. It was impressive to see the water flowing at 20 miles an hour. But you may, that's probably another another podcast, yeah.
Matthew Yehling:Yeah, we're. We're excited to have you because we talk about and nerd out on workers' comp issues all the time and we talked a little before we started recording about why we would have you on this podcast. And with injured employees there's so much that goes on right before the injury, after the injury and the recovery and we're interested in getting people the best outcome, the best result and getting them back to a functional lifespan. So having you and hearing a little about the neuroscience of anxiety and stress and depression and all that, and then the eight steps you've outlined in your book of how to overcome that so I'm excited. It's kind of good to geek out on a different topic than our typical workers' compensation type topics, but this really, I believe, impacts our injured employee population and I'm excited to have this conversation.
Greg Hamlin:I couldn't agree more, Matt. I feel very much the same way With so many of our injured workers. They're going through something really hard and when they go through something really hard like that, we tend to focus on the physical side of what's wrong and what we need to do to help them recover. But there certainly is a lot of anxiety that is attached to not being able to go back to your work, trying to worry about how you're going to pay your bills, thinking about, if you were really hurt, what your life might look like afterwards. So all of those things I think we both have seen really lead and impact how people recover. So this is going to be a fun one. Normally, Alex, we ask people how they got into the insurance industry. You're actually on a different path, but I would really love to know, like when you were young, in kindergarten for career day, did you like show up and say I am going to be a neuroscientist?
Alex Korb:Uh, no, I think my childhood dream was to be a writer. And it's funny now because then I did neuroscience and people and then I wrote a book about neuroscience. So that was like it's so obvious. Like you, you did that intentionally and I was like, no, I like always liked writing and but I also always like science and like understanding things, but they're just like two separate things. And then, like it wasn't until after getting a PhD, I was like maybe I should like write about the neuroscience stuff that I think is interesting.
Alex Korb:But yeah, I've always been fascinated by science and I think I'm someone who, you know, is maybe more on the anxious side of things, or rather, I was a lot more anxious when I was a kid though I wouldn't have described it that way, I would have said, oh, no, like I just get a lot of, you know, stomach aches. And in learning about neuroscience, I started to see like, oh, like the things that you're thinking about and like what is happening in your brain affects what's happening in your body and your pain and your digestion, and that was just fascinating and I wanted to learn more about it and I felt like the more I learned about it, the more I understood just about myself and what are the little things you can change to be happier and more productive and what are the things that you can't really change, because it just is part of having a human brain. So I've always been really inspired by that.
Matthew Yehling:That's great. And I you know the book obviously we we've referenced. It's called the upward spiral. Wrote it a couple of years ago. Yeah, it really gives you a path out. Right, you know from the downward spiral, but you know to to start off, like how does the brain get in that downward spiral and then transition. Know to to start off, like how does the brain get in that downward spiral and then transition to the other way?
Alex Korb:So yeah, to the that's actually, I think, the most important place to start is like well, yeah, why is this happen in the first place? Because a lot of times, when people are stuck in anxiety or depression, part of the issue is that like but this doesn't make any sense. And one of the first steps is like no, it actually makes perfect sense based on how the brain works. So your brain is full of all of these different circuits that evolved at different times for different goals. You have habit circuit and a worry circuit and imagination circuit and decision-making circuit, and the function of each one is kind of differs from person to person, just like any other traits. Some people are taller, some people are shorter. So some people, you know, worry more, some people worry less.
Alex Korb:And one of the crucial things to understand is that there's nothing inherently better or worse about the activity of any particular circuit, just like there's nothing inherently worse about being shorter. Right, it might make it harder to dunk a basketball. Does that mean you can't be a good basketball player? Like no, it just means maybe stop trying to dunk it and work on your three-pointer, your passing or whatever. And so there are certain parts of our biology that like yeah, that we can't change, but it's not any given feature, it's like how they all function together and the reason why downward spirals happen is because the things that happen to us, or the thoughts that pop into our head, cause changes in the activity and chemistry of the brain and, based on your brain's particular sensitivities, well then that can cause the worrying circuit to, like, trigger the habit circuit. And if you have good habits programmed in, well then that's not a problem, it just resets.
Alex Korb:But like, oh, if the worrying circuit activates the habit circuit, which causes you to be more indecisive and give you more to worry about, and that increases your anxiety because you're focusing on the things you can't control, and then you, whatever, like it all starts to and you stop sleeping and you stop exercising and it all starts to snowball out of control and it feels like totally random, but it's actually like no, these are brain processes, some of which you have control over and some of which you don't.
Alex Korb:It's just, ah, like the pieces you have control over. Well, those are the things you should do something about and I I sort of like to describe like, you know, the weather is the weather, but you can use your knowledge of a weather to decide oh, do I need an umbrella to like plan a trip or whatever? And the same is true of the human brain, that the brain is this dynamic system that, because of how it's wired like, gets caught in these spirals and loops sometimes, but you can use the knowledge of that to actually create, you know, a spiral in the other direction.
Greg Hamlin:I love what you said there, and when I read the book, I think the thing that really stood out to me in this beginning part was just how, when people start to feel these things, they start to cascade where perhaps maybe they're feeling depressed or they're feeling anxious and so they don't want to get out of bed. Right, because they're not getting out of bed Now, they're not exercising, and those things then, instead of getting better, they're actually compounding on each other. If the behaviors that we have when we feel those things work that way, it can get a whole lot worse. You did a really good job in the book of explaining how the brain works on that and I definitely am not a PhD, I'm a criminal justice major, so I'm going to leave that to you but I thought maybe for our listeners, you could talk a little bit about, like, how do the different parts of the brain work that causes these spirals?
Alex Korb:Yeah, you know, it's really a like, a problem with how the thinking and the feeling and circuits in the brain are communicating with and regulating each other. And we can get technical, like I, you know I like to be nerdy like, oh well, you're talking about the prefrontal cortex and the limbic system, which contains the hippocampus and the amygdala, and how those communicate with the dorsal striatum, like, but what's actually most important is to just not memorize the names of these things, but just recognize how they function and, based on know, some people have action circuits that are, you know, more impulsive than others. Some people like more routine than others. Some people's emotional circuitry is more reactive than others, and a lot of times we can look at how our brains are and be like, oh, that's where all my problems are, like if I just wasn't so emotional, then I wouldn't, that wouldn't trigger these habits and whatever. But like there's nothing inherently worse about having a brain that is more emotional. It actually makes it. You know you'll be able to experience more joy and like connection with people and also your emotions are telling you about things that are important to you.
Alex Korb:So you might look at someone else who's less than emotional and like, wow, that person. They can just trudge along in their boring life and it doesn't affect them. It's like, yeah, you should be affected sometimes by things that are important. It's just that some of those things you can't do anything about. So stop increasing the reactivity of your emotional circuitry by focusing on them. Instead, just reframe or accept them. But other things you should take action on and you can thank your emotional brain Like, oh, thank you so much for letting me know and I should do something about that. But it's crucial to know, like, well, what are the things you can change about your brain and what you can't.
Matthew Yehling:So when we're dealing with an injured worker that's just had an injury, greg outlined the compound effect and you outlined that in your book. You even referenced like, even for you, like writing by yourself takes you away and makes you actually stressful, so you go out and you write it coffee shop, but you said, you know, so you're like being aware of that. So like when you're thrown into a situation, maybe like a car accident or a worker's compensation injury or something that's totally out of the blue, we see different responses. Right, no, two people are exactly the same but we see different responses from different people and some people, you know, emerge from that similar injuries with two very different outcomes.
Matthew Yehling:Right, some people get stuck and you talk about getting stuck in the book, but and then some people emerge, you know, and they're back to work and they're productive and you know they go on. So it's like we're trying to focus like on the stuck. So we're stuck here. We have, we just got injured, we have this history, we have, you know, maybe some genes that preclude us having a poor recovery, or experiences or stresses and social you know, poor social support or or luck, like you, you know, even called that out, you know, so.
Matthew Yehling:So all that evolution of items and everything. So how would you like, how would you? You know, if you were talking to somebody and they were like, hey, I had this, all this happened, I feel like crap, you know, I'm I'm stuck, I'm depressed. You know what would you tell somebody?
Alex Korb:you know, in that situation, yeah, Well, one of the first, most important things is to acknowledge your emotions. Things is to acknowledge your emotions Because sometimes, like smart people can get in this habit of like oh well, I'm logical, I should be able to think through this and and whatever. And like, yeah, logic is a really useful tool that the human brain evolved, but it's built on top of all these other parts of the brain and particularly for certain things like happiness, that is inherently emotional. You can't entirely logic your way to it, and so what happens a lot of times is people ignore their emotions because they think they're not relevant. And your brain is trying to tell you like hey, buddy, this is important and you're ignoring it. And then your brain sometimes it's like okay, fine, like, if you're not gonna pay attention to me, I'm gonna stop telling you about your emotions, I'm just gonna. You're gonna start having migraines or headaches or chronic pain. Like, our emotions don't go away simply because you ignore them, and one of the most powerful things to do is to acknowledge your emotions and that you have many emotions.
Alex Korb:I'm angry at myself for the mistakes I've made. I'm frustrated at how long this is taking. I'm worried where this is going to go. I'm excited that this might get better. I'm grateful for the progress. Like we have many emotions and so a lot of times we ignore all of them or we try and say no. But what's the one emotion I'm feeling? Am I feeling good or am I feeling bad? And like that's like a chef trying to get better at cooking and be like does this taste good? Does it taste bad? No, like you need some nuance. Like, oh, is this too salty? Is it too sweet? Like understand your own emotional depth. So this awareness is the first piece.
Alex Korb:The second piece is validating your own emotional experience. Like oh, it makes total sense why I'm frustrated and depressed. I normally go into work every day and I enjoy talking with my coworkers and being productive, but I know, oh, now I can't do any of that. Like, therefore, my current emotional reaction makes sense. And what? But what often happens if people start to gain a little emotional awareness? They then trigger a habit of self-criticism Like you, idiot, why can't you just do this normally? You used to be able to do it Instead of realizing, like right, your injury may have taken away things from your life that were very important to your well-being, and getting mad at yourself for that doesn't help, that, like, you still don't have those things.
Alex Korb:And now you also have to be mad at yourself. Again, this is people. I don't want to blame people, though, because, like, sometimes people are like, oh yeah, I just need to stop being mad at myself. It's like, no, perfectly understandable why you are mad at yourself, and this isn't to say that you couldn't are mad at yourself, and this isn't to say that you couldn't be mad at yourself. It's that, oh, you are mad at yourself and that's okay and you are grateful, and so our positive emotions and our negative emotions, like, don't have to do this cosmic battle against each other.
Alex Korb:Whereas am I grateful and this is where people often get stuck Like, well, I should be more grateful that it wasn't worse and that I have all these, my wife and all these other wonderful things. Like, okay, well, you probably are grateful for those things. That doesn't invalidate your emotions and your negative experience, and that's one of the reasons why I love talking about the neuroscience, because it helps you realize, like, oh, these things you're experiencing, like, yeah, that's a normal part of being human when you come disconnected from your normal support network or you aren't able to accomplish as much as you could before. Like, yeah, it's totally normal and understandable to have these feelings and, on top of that, you may be having these unhelpful habits or ways of thinking about it that are making it worse or more difficult than it needs to be. That doesn't mean it is all in your head. The other reason I like talking about neuroscience is because it takes away some of the stigma about it. Like is nothing wrong with you. Like this is just. Oh, these brain circuits are functioning in this particular way and like.
Alex Korb:My favorite analogy for that I describe in the book is with a microphone and a speaker. Like, if the volume on the speaker is turned up a little too high, oh, maybe someone bumped the speaker and the volume knob went up. Now your normal singing leads to this screeching feedback. But there's not something broken or wrong about the microphone and nothing broken about the speaker. They're working exactly as they're supposed to. Just, the problem arises based on, like, the tuning. And it doesn't mean you need to ask stupid microphone like, no, well, you just turn down the volume on the speaker just a tiny bit or maybe realize, ah, like, I just need to stop shouting into it and yeah, like that. Hopefully some of that is helpful to realize, like what is going on.
Matthew Yehling:I think it's really helpful. I mean, especially like if I'm the adjuster talking to an injured employee. I think understanding some of that and realizing you know the situation, the injured employees equally is important, right, like to help somebody through this situation. The adjuster is really the ones you know, working with the injured employee day to day and having them understand, like how the injured employee and understand, like what they're processing and what they're thinking about you know that's very critical.
Alex Korb:And I just I should add one thing is that, particularly when your audience is, you know more adjusters who are talking to these people, one of the wrong ways to go about it it's to be like, ah, I know all these things you should do, you should exercise more, you should do these things, and like, no, this is about, oh, understanding and gaining insight for yourself. And so, if you're talking about someone else, oh, these are reasons to have more compassion for the other person, for why it's so difficult. And this is why I wanted to talk about the neuroscience so much in the book, because my editor was like, stop talking so much about the brain, just tell people, like, what can you do? What can you do Like well, the first thing is to start out with like understanding, like, oh, it makes sense why I'm in this situation.
Alex Korb:And so if you are talking to someone else, they are probably jumping past the part of awareness and validation and they're trying to like, oh, I'm trying to do this and I'm trying to do this and I'm going to get them right, and like, you can help them with that process. But usually it starts with like helping them realize that it's not their fault to help them talk about their emotions, like, oh, that must be really frustrating that the doctor is telling you there's nothing wrong with you, but you know you're in pain. But the way you interact with someone, you can get them to become aware of their emotions and then you can help them validate their emotions, which are often the first step, instead of just saying, hey, you should do this and this. If they ask you, hey, what do you think I could do? Oh, then that's a totally different thing. But just don't start with telling them, because that's what everyone's already doing.
Greg Hamlin:That's really important, I think, to really start right where you're talking about validating how injured workers feel. One of the things we did recently the letters we used to send out when someone was hurt sounded like an attorney drafted them and we went back and we restarted that and now they start with we understand you've been hurt in an injury at work and being hurt is hard, and so we just start out acknowledging from the very beginning and I think that this is something that in general in the industry we can do a better job of showing some empathy because people are going through something really challenging. There's a pain coach I've worked with before and she's told me the story. You know, normally by the time they go to a program like hers, they've been through so many different things and a lot of times they're stuck in like the back room of their mother's house and they're not even getting out.
Greg Hamlin:And you know she was telling me some of the things she starts with is just simple goals that they have, and one of them was to get I can't remember if it was get a t-shirt that had I can't remember what their favorite band was and like go into the living room and listen to it. It wasn't even anything that you would think would be like a great accomplishment, but it was like these slow steps were helping that person really. Just start to to do some of the things you talk about in positive ways rather than focus on, you know, all the things that have gone wrong over the last three years.
Greg Hamlin:So I think the acknowledgement part is really important. And then, once we get there, what are some of the things either personally we can do in our own lives, or things that if you were going through this, you could do if you're one of our NGO workers, that would help.
Alex Korb:Yeah, really helpful, which is to make small changes or set small goals, because sometimes we ignore our small goals, Like, yeah, but yeah, I can put on a t-shirt, but like what I really want to do is get back to work, but like you can't accomplish the big goal. So therefore, you just stress yourself out and do nothing, instead of like, well, it doesn't matter if you're, if the big goal is more important if you can't do it. So focus on these small changes. I mean the book, even in the subtitles, like small changes and also that's important because, like big changes, any big change in your life, whether it is an injury or winning the lottery, like any big change causes stress.
Alex Korb:And so when you try and make a big change, you already have a big change, but you're trying to make a whole bunch of big changes in your life. While I'm trying to do this and this and this and this and this, well then your brain is gonna resist. So if you just start small, it makes it feel more achievable but you also don't add more stress. So setting small goals that are moving you in the right direction are infinitely better for you than these big, huge goals that you can't actually do or can't make progress on. Other simple steps involve I mean along those same lines are like physical activity A lot of times and I use the word physical activity instead of exercise for a reason because exercise has all these negative connotations of like things that you have to do that are unpleasant, and it forces people to often think about all the things they can't do or how unpleasant it is. So they'll. You know I'm in pain, I can't exercise. We don't need to exercise, just move your body some. So if you're on the couch and that's where you're at every day, okay, don't think about like trying to run a marathon, just like, okay, get up off the couch and walk around the block once, and if that's all you can do for a week, great, that's way better than sitting on the couch the entire day, and you also don't have to make that decision all at once. All you need to do is get up and put on your shoes and walk outside. You don't have to say, you don't have to force yourself to exercise, but by changing your environment. Now you're wearing your shoes and you're standing outside. Well, if you really want it, you could go back inside to the couch, or well, you're already here, you might as well walk. And that's why sometimes we're like, well, you're sitting on a couch and we're trying to work out the motivation to exercise, instead of making just like little, small change in our environment.
Alex Korb:So that's, those are just a few places to start, and I should, by the way, I should add, like even any little life change that you make has many effects because, like going on, that little walk around the block accomplishes many things. One, some physical activity which impacts the dopamine system, the serotonin system. Two, it's a small goal that you set for yourself, that you can do, and that also increases motivation and releases dopamine. Three, now you're getting some sunlight, which also changes your brain's clock and improves sleep quality and improves sleep quality, reduces pain. So that you know, tomorrow you maybe have a little bit more energy because you're more rested. And so, like we often don't make these small changes because we're like, well, that's not going to fix everything and it's like, yeah, but if you just make one little change, that'll probably have these other unintended, you know other add on effects and that'll change your brain and then it'll make it a little bit easier tomorrow.
Matthew Yehling:And now you've got better sleep. Now you have a better habit, you know you get into the biofeedback and you feel better.
Alex Korb:Once you, because, like people, they want to often like, jump forward in the process. Like, like it's any athletic skill? Like I don't want to practice free throws, I just want to be a great free throw shooter. Well, how do you get there? Well, you, you don't start out there. I mean, it's okay to miss a bunch of free throws, nothing wrong with that. Like, just keep going. Every single time you do it, you're building that pathway. Like, just keep going. Every single time you do it, you're building that pathway.
Alex Korb:So when people are trying to change their habits like I'm trying to build a habit of, you know, getting at physical, yet a habit you just have to do it and most of the time you'll forget about, okay, and then, but anytime you remember I was like, all right, I'm just going to keep doing that. And then each time you do it, you start to strengthen those connections, which makes it easier in the future. This is just how the brain works, and realizing that that's a process that takes time to become automatic is helpful. Just like if you were growing a plant and someone's like hey, plants need water and fertilizer, and you're like okay, great, so I put my water and my fertilizer and I come back the next day and stupid plant hasn't grown yet. Well, that's the point, I'm not going to stop, I'm going to stop watering it and it's like, ah, okay, like, yes, that's a necessary component, but like it also takes time. And so you just need to imagine that you're tending your brain like a plant. It's not going to have immediate results.
Alex Korb:Or even like going to the gym right, I want to, I want to look like the rock, I want to bulk up, okay, well, the first few days you go to the gym, you probably don't look any different and you feel sore and you feel worse. But knowing the how the biology works Well, if I keep doing that, then I'll feel better, I'll look better works. Well, if I keep doing that, then I'll feel better, I'll look better. Whatever. Like it's easier when we're talking about biology that we can see. It's harder when we're talking about things that we can't see and because they're so abstract. And that's why I find it so helpful to talk about the neuroscience, because it makes it concrete, like wow, I didn't feel amazing after exercising today, but I know that it's having these effects on my brain, just like water and fertilizer, so I'm going to keep doing it, and then we start to see results.
Matthew Yehling:Does that also help with? So we're talking about loss prevention a lot in insurance too. So if I think about, like my loss prevention hat, if I have these good behaviors, when the next disruption occurs, you know, the next time I sprain my ankle is the recovery faster or is the disruption less? I've built these good. You know these habits, these good mechanisms to kind of, you know, get me to a good baseline. Or even you know these habits, these good mechanisms to kind of, you know, get me to a good baseline. Or even you know, out of that my spiral is going up. You know, maybe I'm not at the top of the spiral, we're probably never at the top right, but we have injured employees or loss prevention activities that kind of get us a better baseline. You know I'm thinking the disruption doesn't sink me down, my spiral doesn't go down as far. I don't know. Is there any science to that yeah, no, absolutely.
Alex Korb:And some of the a lot of things we're talking about are physical habits like your exercise habits and your sleep habits and those. If you're consistent about those then, yeah, it's less likely it'll get stuck in a downward spiral. But one of the most important habits to get a handle on is self-criticism, because normally what happens for a lot of successful people, if you got to where you are in some sense because you were critical of yourself, like in high school you slacked off a little bit and you're like you idiot, you need to focus and like do better on the test and that helped because you know you're smart and talented and motivated and you just need a little kick in the butt to accomplish this thing. But it's also because the challenge you were facing wasn't insurmountable and so a little self-criticism was helpful and we often retain that habit over time. But now you're experiencing a situation where trying harder isn't necessarily helpful or you don't have full control over the situation, which creates stress, and stress prompts us to do our old habits.
Alex Korb:And now this habit of self-criticism that like maybe was helpful or at least wasn't a problem for most of your life, now it's creating depression and demotivation and increased pain and all of this stuff. And if you can reprogram that habit of self-criticism, then absolutely you become more resilient to getting caught in these downward spirals in the first place. But that's hard to do. But a lot of the first step is realizing, oh, but it's useful, and starts with mindfulness. And then what you start to do is, instead of trying to stop your habit of criticizing yourself, you just instead try to create a new habit of compassion.
Greg Hamlin:I think that's great and I think you're really hitting on something with self-awareness. I think a lot of times the example I give is there's been times I've driven to work and I don't even remember really getting in my car. I got halfway there and it's because I go that same route every day. I know exactly what I'm doing. I can be half asleep and I'll show up at my office and I'll be there, and I think I've gone down that path so many times and it's such a habit that I don't even think about it.
Alex Korb:Watch out Birmingham.
Greg Hamlin:Yeah right, I have not been an accident, so good news on that. But I think sometimes when we start talking about whether it's anxiety or depression, it's really easy, if we have the habits that are taking us in a downward spiral, to almost be like that drive to work. It's like you just start going down that path because you've driven that path so many times that it's thinking of ways to redirect yourself, without getting mad at yourself, but knowing that you're on that path.
Alex Korb:Right.
Greg Hamlin:Yeah, one of the things you talked about in your book that I loved was just the importance of gratitude. Right yeah, depression, how do you fit that in, or how do you? What are some thoughts on how to work through that so that you get the benefits that come with the gratitude?
Alex Korb:Yeah, well it's. It's obviously wonderful when we're like overcome with these like feelings of gratitude, but unfortunately that's what people focus on too much. That you know, don't? I don't feel grateful at the moment and they think that their goal is they need to change how they feel, that I should feel more grateful. Look at all these wonderful things in my life. I should feel more grateful. But that's not helpful, because however you feel is how you feel, and if now you're criticizing yourself for how you feel, well, that's not going to suddenly make you more grateful. Just like my height, I might be frustrated that I can't dunk a basketball. Okay, well, like my height is what it is Like. Can I get better at jumping? Maybe I can. Like. If maybe I can't get good enough, I should then start focusing on passing or dribbling or defense or teamwork or whatever.
Alex Korb:The challenge I think a lot of times also is that we just think you're black or white, Like we think we have just one emotion and a lot of times you have a lot of frustration and negative emotions that are obscuring your awareness of the gratitude that you already have. So a lot of times you are grateful, you're just not aware of it. Just like you know, if you have a messy desk, like well, your paper is here somewhere, you just can't see it, but the process of looking for it is really helpful, it's much more likely that you will find it. So, when it comes to like wonderful things in your life, a lot of people like, well, you know, yeah, I have a house and a nice, you know, and kids, and like I don't, I should feel more grateful. Well, no, you actually are grateful for those things. Like, do you like that you have running water? If someone asked you about it, you'd be like, yes, I'm glad I have running water. Great, that's the first step. Like yeah, it's not going to overwhelm you with feelings of gratitude, unless you know you were just in a storm. The water got shut off for three days. We're like, oh, now we have running water. Oh, awesome.
Alex Korb:Your brain quickly habituate to whatever your circumstances are and that's why it's very easy to take for granted all these wonderful things in our life. They don't automatically trigger emotions, but your goal is just to direct your attention to what those things are. Your brain's not going to automatically do it for you. So you can just think, oh, am I glad I have running water. Yeah, I am really glad it's okay that it doesn't change my feelings.
Alex Korb:But the more that I become aware and focus on all of these things that I am grateful for now, suddenly they become a bigger part of my awareness and these negative emotions don't quite seem so unmanageable. But people also get in their way because they're trying to figure out well, what's the one thing that I'm feeling? Am I angry that this happened or am I grateful that it's not worse? You are both of those things. If the anger helps you take action to you know, speak up to management or suicide or whatever great, it's good. If you're angry, if the gratitude helps you enjoy your life and appreciate the things you have, then great, that's good, you're grateful. But like you don't need to have those things, do battle against each other and it almost always becomes a problem when we start using the word should like get a more nuanced and complex understanding of all the things that you are feeling.
Matthew Yehling:So I tell my kids in the morning and maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I say if you act enthusiastic, you will feel enthusiastic, right. And I have a friend that kind of says that. So I kind of picked it up from him and I said you know, there's some truth here. Like you act enthusiastic, you will feel enthusiastic and you know it's said otherwise, right, like almost fake it till you make it. Is there, you know, is there biological, is there like neurological truth to that?
Alex Korb:Yes, there is biological truth to that being helpful and that being a problem. So the reason why I fake it till you make it is helpful is, like you know, I don't feel like exercising. Okay Well, if I felt like exercising, like what would I do? I'd probably, ah well. So then you start changing your actions. You don't let the fact that you're feeling a certain way dictate all of your actions. I don't really feel like being social, so then I isolate myself and I don't feel so. Then we you know it's the, the emotions trigger our actions and and send us in a downward spiral. So you can break that by saying like oh, it's okay that I don't feel that way, like you don't need to feel like connecting with someone in order to just dial, you know, a friend on the phone. Like one is a feeling, one is an action. We don't let ourselves take action until we feel a certain way. Then we are putting an unnecessary hurdle in front of ourselves. So that's the way it is very helpful to just separate out oh, it's okay that I don't feel that way. That's sort of acknowledgement and acceptance, and then focusing on what I can do.
Alex Korb:Where it gets problematic is when people then become disconnected from their emotions because they're like well, if I just ignore the fact that I'm sad or upset and just tell myself that I'm not sad or upset, great, then the problem won't go away. But that often just means well, no, the problem will come out in weirder, unexpected ways. I'm doing all the things I should be doing, and so you don't want to use the positive emotions and actions to invalidate your negative emotions and experience. But if you can accept your negative emotion and experience, say, okay, it's okay. I'm just going to focus on this part for right now. And this like you know, sometimes we talk about optimism and like a glass half full example. I don't really like that example because it sort of implies that like, well, you're just, you know they're battling against each other. Well, there's half full or half empty. What are you focusing on? Because even if the glass was 90 percent empty, right, that doesn't mean you don't appreciate the little sip of water that you do have. And just because you appreciate the little sip of water that you do have doesn't mean you're not frustrated that you don't have more water. You have both of those things, it's just okay.
Alex Korb:Well, which of those feelings am I going to let guide my actions. Am I going to focus on this little 10% over here and like, oh well, that'll help me take positive action and then that'll do more things? I don't have to do that, or I could if I want. I just whine and complain and like nothing's, no one's stopping me. Oh, then I won't take action and then that's going to send me into a downward spiral and like I could do that. But instead I'm going to acknowledge these negative emotions and choose a different path. So it's really a matter of choice in the matter and agency. If you're doing that, then that's great. If you're just trying to, like, force yourself or ignore these negative emotions, then it can sometimes create problems.
Greg Hamlin:That's fantastic. I really like your book. So even me personally is anxiety just wired into who I am. My dad was that way, my wife's that way, I've got a couple kids that are that way, and I think you're right. Like a big part of it is just accepting it and being okay with it and then and being okay with what you're feeling. But then what you do, what you choose to do, the actions you take, have so much to do with how you feel after that, and so I think you, there were so many things as I read your book that I was like, wow, that's great. Or things I even realized I'm like I've been doing that on my own and it actually makes a big difference in my life. So Right.
Alex Korb:No, I think that's one of the key things too is sometimes people don't realize all of the things that you're already doing. And realize all of the things that you're already doing and oh, oh yeah, I'm so glad I'm doing that, oh, yeah, I'm glad. It just like gives you more to appreciate about what you're doing and what you actually have control over and what you don't.
Greg Hamlin:Well, and I think there's a mindset and I think I think it's changing some but that if you struggle with those things then there's something wrong with you or you. You know you can't be successful. You know I've had a great career, I hope to continue to have a great career. I have a wonderful family and great marriage, so I can look at all those things and be like, well, there's so many great things in my life. Just because you, if any of our injured workers or people that we deal with, are struggling with these things, they're normal. It's normal to get discouraged sometimes, to feel some of those things and just accepting it.
Alex Korb:Yeah, and I'm going to go even further than that. It's like people like, oh, okay, well, this is it's not bad. That's what a lot of people okay it's not bad that I have these things. And I'm going to actually go further and say it's good that you have these things. Because we look at some people like, oh, that guy has no emotions and he's just always that. You wouldn't want to be that guy. Like, the fact that your brain is emotional makes you more excited to play with your kids and spend time with your family and enjoy your vacations. It makes you have a better time of connecting with people and experience more joy out of that. It makes you, you know, started a podcast. You wouldn't have started a podcast. You could have just been one of those normal people who just like, goes and does their work, like no, but the fact that you have these different things that you're excited about, that increases, you know, the depth of your life.
Alex Korb:It also sometimes gets in the way, sort of like, you know, does a Ferrari having a big engine? Is that good or bad? Well, if you're like, oh, it's bad for the environment. Okay, is it fun to drive? Yes, because it's so fun to drive, am I more likely to get in an accident? Yeah, probably. Okay, so I should appreciate that it's so fun and awesome to drive and because it's so awesome and fast, it was like, okay, then I should just be in these particular situations. I should just be more conscientious. And when you like, this is what I really work on with my clients.
Alex Korb:The issue is like or the goal is being able to master your own unique neurobiology Like, yeah, you can tweak some things or change some things here that you can't fundamentally change what kind of person you are. But you don't need to. And if you're the kind of person who is very intelligent and very emotional, awesome that you have a Ferrari for a brain and stop wishing that you just had, you know, a Camry or something because it's more reliable. Instead, you're like, oh, how can I drive this amazing Ferrari and, you know, smoke all these other guys, you know but also not get in an accident? Right, right, nothing against reliability.
Matthew Yehling:I'm offended because I drive a Camry. Ferraris in St Louis aren't very practical. I'm a little more practical.
Alex Korb:But also he's wearing the Hawaiian shirt and you're wearing a pullover, so that makes sense. But the key is, if you have a camry, then appreciate it for what it is like. Great gas mileage fits my whole family, whatever like. So, yeah, like whatever your brain is. The biggest issue is when people are criticizing themselves for the brain they have, instead of appreciating all the wonderful qualities as it has and like if it gets in the way, okay. Well then, just tweak some things about your biology or your life.
Greg Hamlin:I love it. I love it. Well, alex, I know we have a hard stop. I could talk to you for two more hours. You have so much to say and so much insight. I certainly encourage people to check out your book. The Spiral Upward, I think, is the title. It's great the Upward Spiral, upward Spiral. Thank you, and the one thing I want to end on. One of the things I like to do at the end of every episode is just try to put some good vibes out in the universe, and so the question that I wanted to end with today is if you don't mind telling me about a person that changed your life, somebody that impacted your life in a positive way, because I think you know we focus so much on the negative, but there's so many people doing good things in small ways that impact us and really make us who we are, and so I wondered if you could share that with us today.
Alex Korb:Yeah, I mean. The first person that comes to mind is one of my good friends and UCLA colleagues, dr Billy Gordon. He unfortunately passed away a few years ago, but he was the most fascinating person I've ever met. I like to describe him as the most famous 600-pound drag queen neuroscientist you've never heard of. He was in the movie Coming to America with Eddie Murphy in the 80s and he had a whole like career in Hollywood.
Alex Korb:Like, he lived as a woman for 20 years I used the key pronouns because he was a man when I knew him and like because he just, you know, fell in love with drag and just lived as a woman for 20 years. And then, when he was 40, he decided in neuroscience and he went back to living as a man and we were close friends even though he was, you know, 27 years older than me and we were very different in so many superficial ways. But he taught me really about how the brain actually works and how to, you know, appreciate the joy of life even through difficult circumstances. And in his memoir he left an unfinished memoir on his laptop that I'm trying to get published but the basic theme of it is like you're the only person who gets to be you, so like sometimes. Person who gets to be you so like sometimes. Yeah, you have to do what you can in order to survive, but you get the privilege of being you, and so you might as well enjoy that, even if, you know, not every situation is ideal.
Greg Hamlin:I love that. I love that. Well, alex, I just again appreciate you joining us for this episode. Encourage people to check out your book, and I always like to leave our audience with our mantra to do right, think differently and don't forget to care. And that's it for this episode. We hope you keep following us. We've been doing this for over three years now. Episodes release every two weeks on Monday and we haven't missed one, so I hope you follow us for future episodes, and with that we'll let you guys go. Thanks, everybody, thank you.