ADJUSTED
ADJUSTED
Mediations with Alan Jordan
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Discover the art and science of mediation in our latest episode of ADJUSTED as we welcome Alan Jordan, a seasoned mediator and founder of Prism Group. Alan offers rich insights into the transformative power of mediation in resolving disputes, particularly in the complex realm of workers' compensation. He reflects on his journey from traditional legal practice to becoming a mediation expert in Louisiana, highlighting the legislative shifts that made mediation mandatory but not always effective.
Season 9 is brought to you by Berkley Industrial Comp. This episode is hosted by Greg Hamlin.
Visit the Berkley Industrial Comp blog for more!
Got questions? Send them to marketing@berkleyindustrial.com
For music inquiries, contact Cameron Runyan at camrunyan9@gmail.com
Introduction to the Podcast
Speaker 1Hello everybody and welcome to Adjusted. I'm your host, greg Hamlin, coming at you from beautiful Sweet Home, alabama and Berkeley Industrial Comp. And today I have our special guest with us, alan Jordan, founder of Prism Group, and he is also a mediator. Alan, you want to introduce yourself a little bit for our audience.
Speaker 2Sure, as Greg says, my name is Alan Jordan and I'm licensed to practice in Louisiana. Have been since 1986. And, just briefly, for the first 20 years of my professional career I was in and out of a couple of firms working primarily in the industrial or work-related accident area. And then for the last 10 or 12 years of that 20-year period, for my own firm, again concentrating on self-insurance funds self-insured but handling those from the employer and the carrier side, self-insured but handling those from the employer and the carrier side. And then around 2000, 2002, as life happens, sometimes sort of an interesting turn of events a couple of local attorneys reached out to me and asked if I would be willing to sit down with them and listen to their case and see if they could gain some insight. Of course I panicked, thinking I was in that case and I had missed some deadline. But they assured me I was not a party to the case and so I thought it was sort of an interesting request. But I said, yeah, that's fine. So we sat down one afternoon and two or three hours later with their clients and we had it resolved and they thanked me and that was kind of it, until about 10 days later somebody called and said hey, so-and-so told me last week you helped them and sometimes I'm a little bit slow, but after that I thought there's probably some real traction in here.
Speaker 2I enjoy the aspect of problem solving, with kind of my background and having practiced in that area and it seemed like this process was needed. I mean, workers' comp is. Time is the great enemy Most of the time. Things don't get better with time, they usually get worse. And yet, despite all the efforts to speed along the litigation train and some of the hoops you jumped through in 2003, I had another partner.
Speaker 2At the time I formed a small specialty mediation company and focused primarily on the resolution of industrial and work-related claims. There was nobody in Louisiana doing those on a privatized basis. We had a state mediator system a good concept but not very effectively staffed, primarily because the mediators were generally lawyers right out of school and they had not been bloodied and beat up enough to sort of have a little trench experience and, like most things, it took off kind of slowly. Experience, and like most things, it took off kind of slowly. But by 2009, I had decided I was done with practice in law in the traditional sense and I went full time into mediation and for seven or eight years it was only me in the state for the prison group, and in 2017, I started adding mediators and now we have four additional mediators who work statewide.
Speaker 1That's awesome. So you're based in Louisiana. What part Baton Rouge? Okay, are you ready for Mardi Gras? We're heading that way, right.
Speaker 2Well, we are headed that way, and, like a lot of the local festivals, I'm sure in your area too, what is of interest to those who don't live here, those who live here leave it that way. And, like a lot of the local festivals, I'm sure in your area too, and all what is of interest to those who don't live here, those who live here leave. That's great. Yeah, so I'm not actually leaving this year, but no, we're not big Mardi Gras just because I've grown up here and been around it and it is a fun time and it's a celebration, but it's not something that we partake in.
Speaker 1Yeah, I'm from Indiana originally, so you know, coming to Alabama. I guess it started in Mobile, maybe even. So there's a lot of Mardi Gras stuff here in Southern and Central Alabama, that kind of spills, you know, headquartered sort of now in your state. So I learned a lot about it, I will eat a king cake. I will do that, so I'm in for that.
Speaker 2Well, yeah, I'm never against that. I mean, we have king cake until the end of Mardi Gras, because when we hold mediations at our facility here we have a lunch and so we'll have a king cake for people to take what they want from. But I like aspects of Mardi Gras, but the idea of standing in New Orleans in a crowd of people three and four deep and all to catch some beads. I really have all the beads that I need right now.
Speaker 1I hear you on that. Well, what I don't need is cutting into that king cake and finding another baby, because I got six kids. So, oh, that's. The last thing we need is I've got a three-year-old three to 20. So we're living in that for sure. So when you were going to grade school, alan, did you know you were going to be a mediator?
Speaker 2Oh heavens, no. I grew up in a family where I was going to be a builder. My dad was a residential builder and I was in and around that business from the time that I can remember whether it was going to a job site with my dad and eventually transition into all the trades and crafts framing houses, trimming houses, plumbing, electrical and was headed down that path. I mean, that's what I was going to do. I was an only son. I had three sisters.
Speaker 2It was a small business and at 18, my dad helped me build my first house, went to LSU, was headed right down the builder's path until the interest rates went to 22. A half percent and I am living proof that you can't run a business, have five kids and raise a family with interest rates at 22 and a half percent. And so I said, well, school's never been that big of an issue. I'll just go to law school and kick this can down the road. Well, by the time I got out of law school, the savings and loan crisis had hit, Building was still not very attractive, and so that's how I got out of law school. The savings and loan crisis had hit, the building was still not very attractive, and so that's how I ended up in law.
Speaker 1Okay, okay, that's a roundabout way. My brother also got into law a little later in life, so somewhat similar path. The housing crisis sort of forced him back to school, so definitely know that story. So for those who are listening who don't know what a mediation is, alan, can you tell our audience a little bit about what a mediation is and what the role of a mediator is, especially on the workers' compensation side?
Speaker 2Sure, up to the pre-digital era which you know, the early 80s, mid 80s most cases were resolved whether it be a workers' compensation case or an injury case or an industrial case, ora, commercial case generally by the parties involved through their counsel, sort of discussing what the pros and cons were of a particular position and seeing if they could work it out. And then in the 1980s the litigation explosion hit and people's first avenue to resolution, instead of kind of talking about it, seemed to kind of shift toward the court system. And so for a period of time there the court systems were overloaded with claims and they just the backlog of trying to get some type of resolution for your client was difficult. And so and it probably happened differently, greg, across the country but in Louisiana the concept of mediation, which is really people sitting down outside of a legal environment voluntarily, without there being any coercion, to reach a decision, which is a little bit different than arbitration, to simply have a neutral or somebody go between both sides and sort of listen to each side's position and see if we can't come up with some alternatives short of going through the full-blown litigation process, and so that's really kind of how mediation got its start in Louisiana and, as I alluded to earlier in the workers' comp arena.
Speaker 2Louisiana went through a pretty significant legislative change in the early 90s where we shifted from the traditional district court system to an administrative system and at that time they had mediators added in the state system, which was really a good idea, and still is.
Speaker 2But it was the first public offering of a mediation and it was mandatory or it's not mandatory that you reach an agreement, but mandatory that you participate and, as I said earlier, the concept is good but it wasn't really staffed appropriately and so it didn't meet with a lot of success. So when I come along in the late 90s, early 2000, people have had 10 years of an administrative system that had a good concept but not highly effective, and then we begin to offer mediation with somebody who spent 20 years practicing along with other people in our group who can sit and listen to both sides and sort of say look, I'm not here because I have the answer, but I believe that if all of us kind of honor each other's positions, that we could create some options that may or may not be attractive for either of y'all to choose to try to put resolution to it. So that's kind of how it came about.
Meet Alan Jordan: Mediator and Founder of Prism Group
Speaker 1That's great, I know. For me, I've been in the industry for a while a couple of decades and one of the things that I've noticed I've been in the industry for a while a couple of decades and one of the things that I've noticed and I've had fantastic attorney partners throughout all that but even the best attorneys a lot of times are cautiously optimistic until three years later when we're on the court steps and they're calling me asking for authority to settle something that I thought we were defending, authority to settle something that I thought we were defending and I think you know, sometimes when we get that far down the road, we've already spent three years of legal expenses when maybe there was an opportunity to reach an agreement earlier that both sides could have been happy with. When you're doing these mediations, what do you feel like are the keys to having that be a successful mediation that maybe avoids that three-year process and brings this thing to closure for both parties?
Speaker 2Yeah, it's a really good question. Let me say this and then I'm going to address the specifics of your question. So mediation is a really good fit for me. I liked the educational aspect of the legal system but the idea of sort owed. You just simply had to sit down and try to realize that life's not black and white, it's gray. So I grew up in and around almost all of the different types of trades, of people that I mediate cases with, and I worked with them, and so I have a lot of respect for people who work with their hands in difficult circumstances like that. So that was a natural fit for me.
Speaker 2So when we get to mediation, of course the first step is both sides have to agree that you're here, and what we've tried to do with not only the self-insured but other people that we've mediated cases with, I think is exactly what your suggestion is.
Speaker 2Mediation has a high resolution percentage or efficacy, and it doesn't cost a whole lot to give it a shot. So early intervention with somebody who can explain to especially, say, the injured worker what the next three years will look like and what those outcomes might be, and give them some options to basically choose what they want their tomorrow to look like, as opposed to giving three years of their life to a process that they may not end up with a better result. So the biggest challenge for us is getting and look, I'm a licensed attorney, they're all friends of mine, I. We get sort of narrowly focused down a particular path and I think mediation kind of invites you to a more open space that says, look, we may not resolve it, but we ought to have a conversation before we spend three and a half years and then resolve it.
Speaker 1I think that's great and I think you know that gets lost a lot and especially for these injured workers that don't understand the system, they don't understand all the complexities of how long it could take. You know those are all things that you know we're living in it every day. So those are things that are we're well aware of. But if you've never been hurt before and you're trying to find your way through this, that can be a real challenge. And a lot of times there's families involved in medical bills and people they love that they need to take care of and all of those things and you throw in. Maybe in some of these situations there can be challenging relationships with their current employer too. That further that. So there's a lot to work through when you're mediating these types of situations. What are some of the pitfalls that you're like oh boy, if that happens, that's going to throw this mediation off. Or you've seen kind of taken a mediation that maybe it could be resolved but goes off the rails a little bit.
Speaker 2Yeah, most of what I think we help people with is to understand how a workers' compensation claim plays out, and I think that it's fairly consistent. In the different states the laws are slightly different. It's really a limited benefit system, but it's on a no-fault basis and because of the prevalence of what it's the advertising community and that's not in any way a denigration of it it's just that people are more and more aware, through the internet and the other means of advertising, of the injury system, and so when they come to a workers' compensation mediation, almost always, despite what their lawyer may have told them, they have some concept that there's going to be a pain and suffering award, that there's going to be a jury trial and there may be jury trials in some jurisdictions for comp. There's not in Louisiana, and so the first thing that we spend our time doing is doing our very best to sort of understanding what I call the playbook. I mean we have to be able to work within the parameters of what your lawyer or the legal system allows to do. That's the only way to make an effective choice. And then, once we kind of get that underway and you ask about pitfalls, I mean it is an emotional experience for the injured workers, because a lot of times they feel like they have lost more than what they had anticipated, and so we try to honor that feeling but, at the same time, suggested them that the only way to impact tomorrow is to make a decision today, and nobody's ever gonna push or coerce you to do that. But if you will stay with this process and what I share with them is that in 20 years of doing this and 7,000 mediations, I can tell you that most people find some option not everybody, but most people find an option better than staying in the system. And so we educate them, we explore options, and then when they get hung up and say this just doesn't seem fair, that's one of those pitfalls. I'll say it's really not fair. The real question is how much do you want tomorrow to be like yesterday? Because if you haven't felt like yesterday was a fair experience, I can pretty much assure you that tomorrow is going to be in some form of fashion or repeat of that. So that's one of the pitfalls, and I'll give you a couple other examples.
Speaker 2I hear sometimes well, my brother-in-law got this, oh yeah, so their brother-in-law is not there. So I say, well, that's really good and this took me a while to figure this out. I'll say could you give me your brother-in-law's number? And they usually stop and they say why do you need their number? I said well, if we're going to use your brother-in-law as a basis for understanding how you've arrived at what you think a value is in your case, I have to understand your brother-in-law's case, and I will tell you that I've never yet had to call a brother-in-law.
Speaker 1Yeah, I definitely could see that, and I think we hear that a lot too, and I think you know, one of the things I've seen, whether it's in the industry or even in my personal life, is when you get in that situation where you're so set on right fighting, it ends up being that everybody loses, and so figuring out how you can find some common ground and some things we can agree on in a difficult situation is so important to being able to move things further forward. Do you find, as you're working with both the plaintiff attorneys and the defense attorneys, the insurance companies, the injured workers, that there are some things on the, let's say, the carrier side we could do better to come to a mediation prepared to bring something to resolution? And I know that's a huge bucket I'm putting in. You probably work with lots of different carriers that probably approach it differently, but just general advice on that.
Speaker 2Yeah, no, I mean, it's a really good question. I would. I think I've said this in some form or fashion, but I'll reiterate it. I think I've said this in some form or fashion, but I'll reiterate it. I still think early intervention is a high probability of managing risk in a more effective way than, sometimes, the grind of the process. In some cases you have to do that, but the vast majority of workers' compensation cases you don't, because you think about the conversation that we have with the injured worker three, five months in to a situation we're pretty good at being able to paint what their next two years are going to look like. And so when we ask somebody you know, if you're making $1,500 a week and you're getting $750, which you know may be the max at the time are you going to be able to sustain your lifestyle with your family based upon a 50% cut? Because that is what the limitation in the law is. And if you can, then maybe you shouldn't settle your case. But they're here today to offer you something that you can't ever compel them in advance to do. So what I'd say to carriers is do everything you can with your claims professional or your defense counsel to encourage an early conversation. I mean, we know from industry standards that about six months in people's mindset shifts and they just sort of accept the plight that they're in. And it may not be quote ready at six months, but I will suggest to you that more often than not, earlier is better than later.
The Evolution of Mediation in Workers’ Compensation
Speaker 2The second suggestion I would have is that, because of the nature in which we communicate now, if we extend an offer to say somebody who's not represented, and let's say that y'all evaluated the case and you think it's an $85,000 case, and you think it's an $85,000 case, and so you reach out to the injured worker and say we'd be interested in trying to resolve this case, and they're like well, I don't know how much is enough. And they say I'm going to make a reasonable offer. I'm going to offer you $40,000. And immediately they're like well, that ain't reasonable. I mean, gosh, you know my brother-in-law got 250. I saw the sign that says 300,000. I want half a million. And you're like well, that's not really how it works. So we'll offer you 50.
Speaker 2Well, then the case gets sent to mediation and you've only got $35,000 left on your authority. And I can assure you that we get no value for a previous offer made. When we come to mediation, they think that's zero. They're like well, they only offer me 10 more. No, no, they're offering you the 60 plus another 10, but it never plays that way. So you really kind of have to have an intuitive sense to say if this person is going to stay in an arena of value that doesn't match with our exposure, we better get them in front of somebody sooner than later to explain to them exactly how this works.
Speaker 1Those are some really good points and I think I love what you hit on about trying to resolve things early. You know, I think the more often we can be proactive is really common ground now, so that they can move on with their life and we can move on with our operations. And that doesn't always work, but I think there's real value in trying to find that when we can't agree on some things and there are going to be times I always say for us, 90% of our injured workers may be higher we really don't have questions about the validity of how they got hurt. We're in the high hazard space. Like you talked about construction things like that.
Speaker 1If somebody lights himself on fire or they lose a limb or they're paraplegic, there's not a lot of question around usually, unless there's drug use or something else going on. There's not a lot of question about them being hurt on the job. It happens occasionally, but most of the time what we're trying to work through is making sure that they feel like they've been treated fairly and that they've been compensated for the injury that they had, and finding a way to help everybody move on is so important On the injured worker side. So when you're dealing with plaintiff attorneys you hinted at that some that there's some confusion around general liability and what people get for pain and suffering, and comparing that to workers' comp, which are really different and operate very differently. How do you help an injured worker understand what they're entitled to or what workers' compensation system has for them when, in their mind, they may have an unrealistic settlement of a million dollars or something they've heard from their brother-in-law, like you suggested? How do you find that so that they can understand that?
Speaker 2Most of the time, effective plaintiff counsel have advised their clients correctly about the way the law works. But having somebody other than their lawyer reiterate and reinforce exactly how a workers' compensation claim from a damage perspective is different than a liability claim is helpful in that process. So the plaintiff's counsel appreciates the process because they've told them over and over again there's no pain and suffering. But for whatever reason, they see values on the TV or whatever and they just assign some arbitrary value and it's primarily based upon a feeling okay, it's like good gosh, you know, I gave 20 years to these people. Nobody called me. I can't get anybody on the phone. All I get is voicemail. That's not y'all. I'm just saying that these are the things that I hear. And so it's like, okay, we've traded efficiency for effectiveness and those don't always align.
Speaker 2So when we sit with somebody, let's say that the case is worth $125,000. That's maybe what y'all's assessment is. And they come in with a million dollars and they're getting $750 a week and of course the medical has to be approved as you go. The first thing that we do is say look, let's make sure we understand sort of the blueprint of your case so you can see in the background. I tell them I never built a house without a plan. If we're going to build you to a tomorrow, that's better than today.
Speaker 2We got to start with a plan, and so we have a whiteboard in every one of our mediation rooms and I draw out for them the two responsibilities that work provides a limited disability system, never payable faster than a week at a time for a limited period of time, and I give them a graphic that they can visually see and say this is like the slinky at the top of the stairs that goes one week at the time.
Speaker 2Okay, so you have to appreciate that, while they may pay you more over time, the real value in your case is what do they owe you tomorrow? So will they have to pay you a million dollars? Well, yeah, if you have a bad result from a surgery and you turn into a quadriplegic, yeah, they'll have to pay that, but they're never going to pay that advance because they're based upon proximity to the present. It's no different than a weather forecast, and so I try to give them concrete examples to help them understand that we are forecasting what might happen in the future and doing our very best to give them some options based upon a forecast that both sides can agree to.
Speaker 1That's a great example and I think I love your idea of having a whiteboard there to like walk through.
Speaker 1This is what you're entitled to and we one of the things we do with our staff is we try right from the beginning to make sure people know what those benefits are and that what they're entitled to, to hopefully avoid getting in these situations where there's a misunderstanding of what is expected.
Speaker 1And then, of course, if you don't I always feel like I say this with my kids all the time If you don't set expectations on the front end of what, how everything works, then there's going to be disappointment. There may not be expectations that are met. So I think that's something as a carrier I know we can do better on the front end is making sure our injured workers understand at the very beginning what those benefits are, how they work and what they're entitled to, so that we avoid the confusion. And I don't think carriers are trying to hide the ball, but I do think what happens is people have too many claims and they are not spending enough time walking injured workers through what all that is, and then that confusion causes a lot of problems down the road. You mentioned not returning calls those lack of communication creates, I think, that tension between an injured worker and the carrier that doesn't always need to be there.
Speaker 2Yeah, and of course it's the only case that the injured worker has and therefore it's front and center and most important. It's like being put on a whole wait for an answer. I mean it's like it's my package and they're like, yeah, but we got 10 million of them out and again, that's part of the struggle between efficiency and effectiveness. So mediation kind of, and it gives them a voice. I mean they've got our full attention and they listen to that process. They shift from not listening to their lawyer but starting to listen to us and say you have the power to choose what your tomorrow looks like. And a lot of times we'll hear it. In Louisiana we have a 10 year limit on most cases for benefits. So they'll say, they'll say, well, how many weeks am I going to get? I said, well, we don't know the answer to that. They said, well, why don't you? And I said, well, the law says they never owe you more than 10 years. But if God calls you home tomorrow, your case goes with you. There is no heritability in workers' comp, so I don't think you're going anywhere, but open the paper. Most of those people didn't think they were going anywhere either. So I don't want you focused on leaving, but I do want you to understand the only value that we really know is what they owe you next week. That's really all we know and we're going to try to improve on that. But that's what value looks like.
Speaker 2And if they insist on years and they think they're never going back to work, I'll say hey, greg, how old are you? And they'll go. Well, I'm 48. I said well, good, I said you can wait 10 years. And guess what? You'll be 58 when your case ends. So you want to wait another 10 years? Well, no, I really don't want to wait. I want them to pay me in advance. I said well, that's not how this case works. So I said I'm going to do everything I can. And then and that's what I was thinking about from the carrier standpoint If you can tie their understanding to an identifiable metric about how many years do you want to get to this process, could you do better with this in advance? To figure out a better solution. That'll let it play out over three or four years, but always honoring that choice framed within how it works seems to be effective.
Speaker 1That's a good key point where you said honoring their choice but explaining the process, and I think that is really when I think and see successful resolution to claims. That's generally the path is that there's empathy involved, there's choice involved, there's respect involved and if those things are there, there's a lot better chance that it's going to come to a resolution than if we're digging our heels in on both sides and right fighting and not communicating. Alan, I've really enjoyed having you on this episode. If someone wanted to reach out to you guys to get advice on a mediation or to set up a mediation, what's the best way to reach out to you guys?
Speaker 2Emily, why don't you chime in on that, since you've kind of handled the marketing piece?
Keys to Successful Mediations
Speaker 3They can absolutely go to our website, prismgroupnet. There is plenty of links there to reach all of our mediators directly and they can ask any of them any questions they have about the specifics of their case Is it ready, how should they proceed? And we also have links to schedule our mediation there as well. But all of our mediators, their direct contacts, are on the website. You can reach out to them, pick up the phone. They are always more than happy to explain, educate, answer questions and then hand them over to our scheduling team and get them booked.
Speaker 2Awesome. So, greg, let me say this too we receive and field a lot of calls with people say maybe somebody from your group or somebody who says, look, we're really interested in mediation. They're not represented. Would you reach out to these folks and explain to them the process? They say absolutely. Folks and explain to them the process? They say absolutely.
Speaker 2And so we do some cases where people have not retained counsel or if they're having difficulty getting in touch with their lawyer. They say we can't get the lawyer to call us back. I say I'll get them to call us back. I said let me reach out. So we do a lot of that sort of early communication.
Speaker 2I can tell you the if there's a resistance to a mediation, it's almost never on the injured worker side, because their client and their fee structure is based upon resolution. And it's not that there's a resistance on the defense side, it's more of staying in this lane. And so I ask people all the time look, you can go get a second medical opinion. What are you going to learn from that? I mean, we kind of know that you're sitting with somebody who's probably going to give you, hopefully, a more conservative opinion. Before you go get something in writing. Sit down with them and let me say you know, greg, I've seen the doctor they're going to send you to. I don't know what they're going to say, but they're probably sending them to you for a reason and that's probably going to result in a third doctor appointed by the state. So 18 months from now we may have the answer, but today we can choose what tomorrow looks like. So that's kind of a nutshell.
Speaker 1That's great points, excellent points, and I loved how you talked a little bit about especially the unrepresented injured workers, making sure they understand the process. That you guys can be a solution to that. Alan, one thing we've been doing this entire well for several years now, is I've been asking our guests something they're grateful for, and the main reason for that is I felt like there's so much negativity just in general in the universe or in our world, and anything that I can do to put some positivity out there, I really believe that that comes back. So I'd love to ask you, alan, what's something you're grateful for? It could be anything, oh yeah, I mean, alan, what's something you're?
Speaker 2grateful for it could be anything. Oh yeah, I mean, look, I'm getting ready to have my sixth grandchild, I've got five kids, all engaged actively in life, and I'm married, and today's Valentine's Day, yippee. So I'm super, super excited and grateful for that. I will say that, professionally, I feel like I have kind of by the way I told my story. Professionally, I feel like I have kind of by the way I told my story. I have been able to live in most ways in most days, doing things that bring me meaning and also, I think, is beneficial to people, and that's, that's, a great vocational mix for me. So, 64 years old people ask me when I'm going to retire. I'm pretty much retired. I get to sit with people every day who find themselves stuck in a situation. I tell them I don't have the answer, but I'm willing to walk that path with them and, you know, I think it moves the needle on a better tomorrow as opposed to staying stuck, sometimes at a place that doesn't help us.
Speaker 1I love that, alan. I couldn't agree more. I feel very fortunate to be in this industry and feel like it's been very good to me, and every day I get the opportunity to help people get better and get back to their lives, whether that's their work or their families, and anytime something bad happens it's hard to work through all that, but I feel grateful for the people I work with who deal with those injured workers every day to try to solve those problems in a way that's fair.
Speaker 1And also, with six kids, I'm right there with you, don't have the grandkids yet I'm a little early for that, but I think that the next 10 years are going to be full of those, so certainly grateful.
Speaker 2Certainly grateful.
Speaker 1Well, alan, we appreciate you coming on the podcast and sharing your thoughts on mediation. Encourage folks that have questions about mediations to reach out to you, as Emily stated how to connect with you, and also just remind our listeners to like, subscribe, share. If they have time. Please, on whatever platform you're on, leave us a review. You know we could use more of those. That helps people find it. I think in the last episode, I'm sure my mom or someone's mom's put in a review, but we would love to have some of our listeners put that in and I have the stats so I know people are listening. We'd love to have your feedback and, with that, remind our listeners to do right, think differently and don't forget to care. That's it, everybody.