ADJUSTED

Building Effective Partnerships Between Agents and Carriers with Andrew Atkinson

May 02, 2022 Berkley Industrial Comp Season 3 Episode 35
ADJUSTED
Building Effective Partnerships Between Agents and Carriers with Andrew Atkinson
Show Notes Transcript

In this episode, ADJUSTED welcomes Andrew Atkinson, Broker and Managing Partner at Insurica. Andrew shares his thoughts on how to strengthen relationships between agents and carriers.

Season 3 is brought to you by Berkley Industrial Comp. This episode is hosted by Greg Hamlin and guest co-host Mike Gilmartin, Area Vice President, Sales & Distribution, for Key Risk.

Visit the Berkley Industrial Comp blog for more!
Got questions? Send them to marketing@berkindcomp.com
For music inquiries, contact Cameron Runyan at camrunyan9@gmail.com

Greg Hamlin:

Hello everybody and welcome to adjusted. I'm your host Greg Hamlin coming to you from Sweet Home Alabama and Berkeley industrial calm. And with me is my co host, Mike Gilmartin. Mike, you want to introduce yourself for folks who haven't heard yet one of the previous podcasts?

mike gilmartin:

Yeah. Mike Gilmartin with key risks based out of Greensboro, North Carolina, and I've done a few of these with Greg and I'm excited to be back. Glad to have you, Mike, with us today as our special guest, Andrew Atkinson. He is a business insurance agent and ad insurer, aka and Andrew, I thought I'd give you a chance to introduce yourself a little bit to everybody.

andrew atkinson:

Sure. Thanks, Greg and Mike for having me. Yes, I'm with Insurica and specifically, Insurica southwest, we're the office of insurance that is in Phoenix, Arizona, and I'm a broker I focus a lot on workers compensation. I've had a big passion for that since day one, and a managing partner of the agency as well.

Greg Hamlin:

Awesome. Well, if people haven't guessed the topic for today is building effective partnerships between agents and carriers. And I don't think we've done one of these ever with an agency. And I thought, sometimes this piece gets overlooked a little bit. And I think it's really important. So I'm hoping today we can tackle some of those things. But before we do, Andrew, I wanted you to tell us a little bit about how you ended up in the insurance industry, you said you'd always sort of had a passion for this. So was that like in kindergarten when they were doing the drawing projects, you're like, drawn out, like if policies and stuff like that. It started with fall protection in kindergarten, I'd always get nervous and people would climb up the Lincoln Logs the wrong way. Actually, an interesting story, I'll shorten it, I bounced around a lot between the age of 20 and 30. I studied marketing in college. And at the age of 30, I was working at a at a restaurant in addition to working at a bank, and it's a it's a nice restaurant here in Phoenix. I love going back especially now, because I'm 44 years old, I don't work there anymore. But my manager at the restaurant at Chelsea's kitchen, her husband was in the insurance business. And he just always he was he was an agent. And he still is. And he just always seemed to have freedom. And he seemed to be generally happy. And one day he told me you would be good in this business. And he made an introduction to me to go work at a very large firm. And I was there for about seven months before I got a call from Insurica in 2008. And I moved here and I've been here for 14 years. That's how I got in it. And I'm forever in his debt. You know, it's funny, I think most of us in one way or another kind of fell into this and then found our passion when we got here. So yeah, that's interesting. So I happen. So tell us a little bit about your company Insurica. Well Insurica is based out of Oklahoma City. That's our headquarters, our home office. And we have 29 or 30 offices around the country. And some of them are big and some of them are small. We were one of the first five offices here in Phoenix to join Insurica. It's largely comprised of many different agencies that were already existing like ours, ours started in the 80s. And it was called Menard Ames for a couple decades after Steve menard and the late Wink Ames. So we became insurer AHCA in 2007. And we have a central hub is Oklahoma City. And then we're made up of 29 or 30 different offices, from well, we say coast to coast now, because we do have an office in Florida, but for a long time, it was mostly west of the Mississippi River, or insurance management network. And here in Phoenix, we focus a lot on the construction industry, subcontractors, general contractors, anybody building anything? And so inherently with that, there's a lot of workers compensation that we deal with. Sure, well, and of course, for those who don't know, Berkley industrial comp, we specialize in high hazard workers compensation. So sometimes that's construction. Yes, heavy equipment operators, cellphone tower workers. So we see a lot of a lot of the same same kinds of things. And that's kind of over time. I think our companies have begun to partner a little bit. So that's that's fantastic. So moving into maybe the next step. I kind of want to let Mike talk about this some because he's, he's moved. I joke all the time. He's gone from the great workers compensation claims side to the sales and distribution side, the dark side, and I forgive him for that, but I thought maybe

mike gilmartin:

thanks, for pardoning me. , I know that now that you have my pardon life can move on for you, Mike. But, you know, I guess you're both probably looking at different sides of the same coin honestly on that. And I was just curious on what some of the top priorities are for successful agency, and then maybe Mike could talk about, you know, what he's seen on his end from his role?

andrew atkinson:

Would you like Mike to take that?

mike gilmartin:

I mean, I think for me, I was I'm not on the agency side, but I, uh, Greg is correct. But I've worked obviously, with agencies throughout my career, both on the claim side, and now the sales and distribution side. And I think, you know, the biggest thing that separates agencies, the ones that I think have the for my vision are the ones that align with customers that have the same vision they do, and care about the industries that they're in, and then find carrier partners that do the same thing. So I think you have the most success, in my opinion, as an agency. And as a carrier. In partnering with people that have a like vision, they have the same kind of mind, for what they're looking for, for how they treat people for how they treat their clients, for the services they like to offer. And from my perspective, that's probably what makes the most successful agencies through my eyes, but I'd love to hear more Andrew, from you as to what you think kind of drives success, you know, for you guys and your firm.

andrew atkinson:

Sure, I'll just keep it specific to our office because I know our guys best we are very big on, I don't want to say selling through seminars, I'll just say we're very big on educational offerings. And so we teach classes on the workers compensation, e mod score, that's the one that I'm really big on the e mod score, how it works, how people think it works versus how it works in reality. And we dive deep into all the different mechanisms of the experience mod worksheets, from the stabilizing value to the expected losses, the W factor, we get into that over. And it's really fun, believe it or not, it's really fun, we found a way to make it fun. And or at least that's what people tell me, every time they leave, they say I had no idea it was gonna be this entertaining. And on a personal level, I believe this system called workers compensation started very nobly. I believe the intentions were very good in in Wausau, Wisconsin, in 1911, when when it began, and what I've seen it metamorphosize into over the last 110 years, the system that's not even recognizable anymore from what it was when it was invented, which was simply a measure for workers to not have to sue their employer to collect the wages and medical expenses following an injury. Because back in 1911, that took a long time, right? There were no telephones, fax machines, there

Greg Hamlin:

Right was there was no way to expedite the legal process. And you look at today, and I've worked most closely with Natalie Dangles than anybody at Berkeley, just because she's on so many of our claims. And we get a chance to talk through each and every one of them. And so taking the side of the employer has really worked well, for me letting them know, look, I know why you're upset with this. But then kind of getting into the different state statutes and the different laws that make us do certain things, whether we like it or not, you know, there's certain things that we have to do, there's certain things that we have to comply with it just like laws, you know, there's a lot of things about the IRS tax code that I do not like. And so taking that approach for me, that whole general approach of understanding why the clients that we work with feel that they're not getting a good deal with workers compensation and validating their concern, rather than trying to tell them what a great system it is. I've been doing that for 14 years. And it seems to be very well received. I think you're hitiing on something that's important there. And that's just the importance of trying to make a complex system understandable. And I think, you know, we see that on all sides, you know, from the employer to the injured worker, you know, it's a confusing process. Shoot, we had a gentleman the other day, on the other side of the country, not out West, who was thrown through a vehicle and lost a lot of his leg. And it's going through a difficult rehab, and just trying to explain to him why we were trying to get him to one of the best hospital. He was so frustrated with his care there that he had basically said, I want to go home, I'd rather go home to be here, you know, they were transferring from the bed and caught his leg on the on the bed and maybe even fracture. I mean, just things that you're like, well, that's not great, right. But that helped me his fiancee understand that and getting his care transferred. And I think you're hitting on the other side of that, which is the employer who could be frustrated. They're trying to run a business, and they're wondering why this guy's not at work and trying to work through that element on their end. It is such a complicated process. And there are certain things we have to do, because the statute says how you administer it. So certainly a challenge.

andrew atkinson:

It just plays right into what you were saying. I think one of the most complicated things about workers compensation, which is why I see so much opportunity in it, as opposed to the other lines of coverage. So think about general liability, think about automobile, think about property, property. And auto is a great example, if a building burns down, the ashes can't talk back, they can't create a story. They don't they're not married anybody. If an automobile runs into a pole, or a car, or it explodes, it's a bunch of twisted metal, it doesn't have a story, it can't talk. It's very factual. It doesn't mean those lines of coverage are easy in that they don't have their own innuendos. But workers compensation every single time, there's a claim, there's a person involved, that's got his or her perspective, there is an employer involved, who has their perspective, rarely do those match. And then you've got a claims adjuster involved, who in most cases hasn't met either one of them, or gone to the scene, you know, not that they should, it's just that's the way it works. And so you've got all these different parties involved, trying to find an amicable solution. And that just on its own, given that that's the origin of every claim, makes it complicated from the very beginning.

Greg Hamlin:

I couldn't agree more.

mike gilmartin:

You hit on something there that the kind of the gist of what we're talking about today, which is all the more reason for carriers and agencies to have such a good partnership, because, you know, you're trying to deal with this from from an employer perspective and with your client. And if you don't have the greatest relationship with the adjuster or the insurance carrier, or what have you, it makes your job that much harder. So I guess one of the biggest questions I have for you is what makes your life easy. So when you're looking at a partnership with a carrier, what are those important things you have to have? You know, from an agency perspective that really helps make you successful? What's your client?

andrew atkinson:

Well, I'm not a paid spokesperson. But I have about seven or 800 attendees of my seminar that I gave for a decade. And when the question would come up, and they'd say, Andrew, this is all great, we understand how the system works. Now, what carrier do you recommend? My answer that I gave on tape for a decade was I dislike all of them the same, I don't care which carrier you go to, it doesn't matter to me where you go, because the e mod and the e mod system is going to work the same no matter who your carrier is. And some claims adjusters are better than others. And that's just the way it is. So there's a lot of different ways I can help you. But I can't help you with that. And then when I met Natalie, and Wes, and Greg, and we, our first meeting actually was a Zoom meeting, it was about three years ago, you spoke our language, you spoke our language, we're talking about indemnity claims, we're talking about medical claims, we're talking about the 70% Medical discount, and, and we kept going deeper and deeper. And I thought this is, this could be good. You know, we've heard some of this before. And everybody's really good. On the front end, when we're looking to appoint a new carrier. Everybody's good. Everybody study their notes. And so we put two or three companies with Berkeley Industrial back in 20, I want to say 17, or 18. And now there's a dozen or more trying to move everybody. And it's been so smooth and so good. Because the claims management has been so effective. And in my world, that's the part that matters. I'm sure everybody at Berkeley industrial is outstanding. But the facing people that I work with are the claims adjusters that Natalie the claims team in here's the key thing. The ability for that claims adjuster to get on the phone and talk directly with our insured has been monumental. And I'm trying so hard not to say names of companies because

Greg Hamlin:

Right, right.

andrew atkinson:

I've got a dozen. And so here's how I judge the success of a carrier. It's not what I think it's what my clients tell me. And just an hour before we got on this phone call, I got an email from from Wes, who had received an email from one of our clients, the masonry contractor that again, was just raving about the online system, that Berkeley has all the tools. So that's the answer the question, Mike, I know that's gonna sound every bit of bias. But I do have six or 700 attendees of my seminars for decades that will remember because they thought it was a funny part. When I said I dislike every carrier the same, and I don't care where you go, just hire me. And then I don't care where you go for carrier and that's different now, with Berkeley Industrial that's different now. Very different.

Greg Hamlin:

I paid him a lot, I promise. You know, I just I appreciate what you said. No, my, I guess mission from the time so I came up through a very siloed organization. So did Mike. So in our beginning of our career, where we work claims, never talked to underwriting, we really didn't talk to agents. I did handle some big accounts. But what I learned in the time since then, moving from there to later running a state funds Claims Department was just how important communication is and relationships and so many of the things that go wrong on claims are because we haven't done a good job explaining why things are happening, and getting buy in from everybody who's there. So that's been one of our big missions. And there's a big movement in claims right now, of claims advocacy, and I've talked about this on other podcasts, but I kind of have an issue with it. And that if, if my adjuster is the advocate of the injured worker, but they're getting paid premium from a policyholder, and then there are shareholders for my insurance company, then we're really missing the boat. And what I've really tried to hit home is we need to be empathetic to everybody who's involved, and to listen, and try to make sure we understand what's going on and communicate, because we represent a whole bunch of people and the injured workers one, but so is the carrier. So is our company. So are the shareholders. So is your agency. And if we're doing our job, well, then when it comes to renewals, things go a lot smoother for everyone.

andrew atkinson:

Yeah, yeah, well, and you've got I can put numerical proof to that when you talk about renewals of all the clients that we moved to Berkeley starting in 2018. And there's been a lot, not a single one of them has a moved away or be considered moving away.

Greg Hamlin:

Yeah, that's a big deal.

Unknown:

So our retention is 100%. And that's not on me.

mike gilmartin:

We've talked about this a lot. And I think Greg united the podcast, probably last season, but it was that was an agent kind of talking about the similar a similar topic. And it's interesting to hear what you had to say, because I think that sums up a little bit of what the world thinks of the insurance industry, and how they look at carriers. Honestly, I mean, I sound when I tell people I work in insurance, they're like, Oh, alright, well, let's move on to something else. Like, there's a big bad guy, like that kind of stuff. But I think you hit on something. And Greg booknoted, something, Berkeley, in my opinion, and key risk, frankly, where I work is really different. And that we're small enough that all groups can work together and have conversations and kind of constantly be in the know of what's going on with accounts and what's going on with agencies and who the right players are and who we need to talk to you. But from your view, right? So for ten years usual, people doesn't really matter which carrier because they're all the same to me. And I'm not really a fan of any of them. From an agent perspective, what causes that dislike, right? So like, you've now had Berkley Industrial and it sounds like it makes your job a lot easier. Your customers are happy. And at the end of the day, that's probably what makes you happy. But what are some of the pitfalls you find carriers walk themselves into when it comes to working with agencies, because that gives you that reaction.

andrew atkinson:

So if you watch an NBA basketball game, after the game, they go into the locker room of the losing team, and they ask them questions. And the most common answer you hear from almost every players, they say some iteration of "it is what it is." And that's just how they like to answer questions in the NBA if they if they lose if they win, it's all kinds of different things. But the losing team usually says it is what it is. And I don't know what that means. I've looked it up. I've studied that I've tried to find a deeper meaning to it. And they're just I've heard a lot of answers for it just not a good one end. So the claims adjusters that I've worked with most of them at the other carriers have that syndrome. And when I want to get deep into a claim, and this happens a lot with subrogation, this happens a lot with trying to retroactively change injury codes, what I get from a lot of the claims adjusters and again, not all of them, there's a lot of good claims adjusters, you just get a lot of it is what it is. Mike, I hope that answers your question. That's the reason number one, there's 10 others, but I'll just stop at number one that makes it hard for an agent like me, because they're passionate about what I do to work with the majority of claims adjusters is just a lack of diving deeper into trying to find a solution once it gets difficult.

mike gilmartin:

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a good answer. I think you we we talk about all the time. And there's a reason our industry gets a bad rap at times. And some of it that is, it's more effort to do the right thing. And it's more effort to put in the work, right. And so for a lot of people call it whatever you want high pending case loads, all different kinds of things, you know, some things aren't a priority to them. And I think one of the one of the differences at Berkeley, I know Greg does this, we do this lowercase loads more time to work on the things that need to be worked on. Understanding all sides of what's going on, and being able to take the time to go deep on claims is something that we preach. So I hear what you're saying. I think it makes complete sense to me. And I think Greg would probably agree, I think a lot of insurance companies get a bad rap for exactly what you're saying. It's just it's easier for me to give you a quick answer and move on to the next thing and it is to really dig in and build that relationship with you. Right. So I would assume, Andrew, that when that happens, you're like, Well, you know, you've lost credibility to me, or I don't have time for this or I'll find somebody else and it sounds like when it comes to Natalie and other folks, I would assume it also buys a lot of goodwill with you and that when Natalie tells you something, you're generally gonna say You know what, okay, I gotcha. And where do we go from here? Because she's built up that credibility. And I think that that's a thing, a lot of times it's lacking across the industry is building that credibility and that relationship up front so that when I do tell you something, and it's a tough conversation to have, you know, it's coming from a place of I've done everything I can do. And this is where we are. But where do we go from here? And I think I agree with you. I don't know, Greg, if you have thoughts on that, but

Greg Hamlin:

I was just gonna say, I think you both are hitting on something that I think support and it's just like it is helping the claim stuff understand it is that it's a relationship. Sometimes I think that gets missed. But like, if I went home, I've been married for 19 years, coming up on 19 years, and have six kids, if I went home to my wife, and I said, it is what it is. And that was the answer. I'm telling you, we wouldn't be married, coming up on it two years, you know, like every relationship takes work. And it takes understanding. And I think sometimes on the clean side, too busy. But if we don't take time to explain the why behind what we're doing, and listen and get the information of why the customer is frustrated, or why the agency's getting some heat on this. We can't get any better. And sometimes Mike's right, we've done everything we can and it's still a bad situation. There has been there have been claims that I've looked back on. And I'm like, man, it just doesn't seem fair. And I can fill that myself. But I know what the statute says what the judges said, and we're there. But if we don't take the time to explain that, then again, it's going back to that it is what it is, that's not going to foster strong relationships.

andrew atkinson:

And we have a number of those that you do finally just run out of an avenue. And well one of two things happens the client is either a lot more willing to understand, Okay, we've run out of every avenue, and we're just, we're in this place where now we can say it is what it is. And it actually means something for the client. And Natalie and I have already had a few of these, where you can at least go to the client at the end and say, I know that you don't like the outcome, you know that I don't like the outcome, the claims adjuster doesn't like the outcome. But this is the law. And as much as we don't like it, we're still all still, we're still all on the same team. If this is the way it works, it doesn't mean we agree with it. And they feel a lot better about that they feel a lot better about that. And some of the clients that we put with Berkeley Industrial have been new business to us. But the majority of them, they've been longtime clients, they've been moved over from another carrier. And with zero exceptions, they've all said the same thing. Andrew, you were really big on these guys, we weren't sure why you were so big on these guys, we went ahead and we moved, you know, it wasn't they didn't save any money on the front end, I'm very honest about that, you know, we're gonna save any money because we're using rates and e mod and class coats, and they're all happy, even the fencing contractor that's had a whole lot of claims, they're happy because they know like these claims are ours, we're the ones with the people who are getting hurt. And Andrew and Berkeley are doing the best they can to try to mitigate the negative impact that these claims are having.

Greg Hamlin:

So we talked about some of the things that make that difficult. So conversely, what are the things that build a strong relationship from the claim side with an agency? You know, and I think some like you said, some are very siloed. So they may not really have that interaction. But, but when there is an interaction, what fosters a strong relationship between claims and an agency?

andrew atkinson:

Well, I this answer I'm gonna give is different than what what I'd say a couple of years ago, communication. Now that's not the new part. The communication is very important. It's cliche. It's overused, I understand that. But two years ago, communication meant that we all got together for lunch, and we got to know each other as we sit here right now. I went a year working with Berkeley before I ever met Wes, for the very first time. He's only maybe 10 miles away. Yeah. And I've never met you. I've never met Natalie in person, talk with her every week talk with her on email every day. And I've never met her but the communication is so good because we're always, we're emailing. We're talking on the phone two years ago, I wouldn't have said that that would have been possible. But the communication we are living proof as a team that the Coronavirus does not have to stop everything it certainly did not stop communication. And we've got an in house claims person on our on our team Steven Pray, who's outstanding. And and so the communication between me and Steven in the client, and Natalie and on the front end Randon we can't forget about Randon Lessing, you know, on the front end going out there doing lost control. Our communication with Berkeley is constant. And that's the number one again, I could go through 10 I gave one on the other side. I can stop at one with that, because that helps. And you guys know the laws too. You know, you know how the system works, right? You know, how its intended to work and what its metamorphosized in 109 years later, that

mike gilmartin:

What you're talking about communication, it

andrew atkinson:

Yes. is cliche, but there's a reason everybody brings it up first because it doesn't happen as often as you think it would. I

Greg Hamlin:

And, Mike, I'd even add to that, too. I think just mean, it's very cliche but it's also dangerous. It's not lived up to like it is not hard to be good, right? It's not hard, do the right stuff and and do the things and you're describing and it takes me back ultimate call probably three years ago with a prospective client. And I was in my claims role at the time. And I remember talking, I was talking to a client and the agent was on the phone and I said, you know, what, what is your experience been? And what what are maybe some of the things you have with your prior carrier that you like some things that you don't like? Like what, you know, what are you looking for? And the guy very candidly said, Honestly, as long as you if I call you for a claims update, and you get back to me within less than three months, you're better than my prior carrier. But I mean, it's, first of all, it's just sad, but slowing down a little bit listening. You know, we get it's mind blowing, but like, that is the standard answer. And it's not hard to be good. Like, this isn't rocket science, right? Communicate, be proactive, actually put some effort into what you're doing. And you will build credibility with people. And if you'd be amazed at how far that goes. And so I think communication is cliche. I think it's it's very, very low bar. It can be a very low bar in our industry at times. moving so fast, or trying to get stuff done. But one of the things I learned, I'm still learning it, but I get a lot of practice, like I said, with six kids at home is to slow down and listen, to slow down and listen. And you know, in high school, I took a speech class, but there wasn't a listening class. So we everything's focused on talking, you know, there's a lot of war going on there talking about the peace talks, right? But there's not peace listens.

mike gilmartin:

Good point. Never thought about that.

Greg Hamlin:

Sometimes we just need to remember to slow down and listen, because you can't understand somebody until you really slow down. And that's not just hearing what they say, but making sure that they understand that you heard it. And that takes more time. For sure. So from a renewal perspective, you know, on the claim side, especially in very siloed organizations, they may not have very much involvement in renewals. And I'm always emphasizing with my staff that they have more of an impact on roles than they think they do. Or they can. So how can claim staff impact renewals or make things easier on you guys? When it comes to that time of year?

andrew atkinson:

You're directing that to me or Mike?

Greg Hamlin:

I'll throw your way.

andrew atkinson:

And you're and when you say claim staff, are you talking claims adjusters? Are you talking loss control, possible loss control claims adjusters claims managers, that side of the industry, I think that really plays into the renewal the most is we put a lot of as agents, I'm guilty of this, we put a lot of emphasis on the renewal dates, right? This is what we need to set up the meeting, bring them flowers, send them a picture of our dog, you know, try to get all ready for that date. And I think the renewal date becomes so insignificant when things are done properly throughout the year when they need us. So I'm going to think into my renewal list right now coming up without going through a big list. And I'm not worried about any of them. I'm certainly not worried about any of them with with Berkeley because the successes that make renewals easy happen throughout the year. I'm not worried. Again, I want to say client names so bad. I could say six or seven of them that come up in the next four months with Berkeley. I'm not worried about any of them. Because as I sit down with each of them, I'm going to be able to say we fix this, we fixed that we had a tricky situation over here. And gosh, that shirt turned out well. And Natalie was all over that. And can you believe she got it closed out at that low amount? And here's what that meant for your e mod. And then here's what it would have been had it had it gone unattended to this is what your e mod score would have been. And then I can say something like, you know, with another carrier, that wouldn't we would not have had that same outcome. Yeah, because I don't talk as an agent, I don't talk a lot about claims. I talk a lot about claims outcomes, because claims are going to happen. I'm not one of those agents that goes out and says I will catch your guy before he lands when he falls off the ladder. I don't make that promise. I say you are going to have claims. And my job is to work with the claims adjuster to make sure that the outcome of that claim is minimized. And so that makes the renewal really easy if you do the right things throughout the year. On the loss control side, randon is in communication always offering this service. Do I need to come see you. But then we haven't even talked about the resources online. We've got a masonry contractor that's in it for two hours a day pulling down fall protection and safety goggles training and every language imaginable. And he thinks it's the greatest thing in the world. It's like a video game to him. So the renewal is not hard when you do the right thing during the year. It's just not.

mike gilmartin:

You make a good point. And Greg, you said some earlier and commercial from the carrier side. I think it's getting our team's understanding and you said I think you did that are correct. Everything they do has an impact. And I think people get so focused on was just one claim. It's just one decision on one claim and this is one reserved on one claim but to a customer and to an agent that all matters. And so throughout the year if you get to the end of the year and Andrews point you done all that? Well, she practically communicated what's going on, everyone has an understanding of where we are with the claims and why we're doing what we're doing. It makes any conversation around renewal much easier. And I think it's always on us as leaders and organizations to make sure people understand the greater kind of big picture that they're involved in when it comes to their everyday job. Do you think when you realize that it's easier to do the right thing, right? Like, oh, whatever is one time I got 100 of them, it doesn't really matter. It does matter. And it matters a lot to a lot of people. And so I think it's a mindset that I think I always try. And I always try to remind my clients after that, I always try to remind me when I'm working with like, every conversation you have, everybody you deal with every meeting you're on, those things make a difference. And to Andrew's point in the year, when he gets there, he's going through his list, it made his life easier, and that, at the end of the day, I'd imagine what really matters the most is, am I able to retain my clients and do it successfully, and not have to run around everybody trying to get to an answer. So I think from our side, we need to focus on that a little bit more, in terms of every decision we make has an impact on a broader scope of things.

Greg Hamlin:

I agree, Mike and Andrew, I like how you talked about outcomes, because ultimately, I think that's got to be the big piece to think about is, at the end of the day, a good outcome for everybody. If we do our job, right, then the employer understands what's happening, the injured worker understands what's happening, they've gotten the best care that's going to help them get back to doing the job they were doing as quickly as possible, you know, and we're going to minimize their pain and suffering because their back doing their job, and their back earning their wage and back the employers got that person that they can count on to do the work. And so I think thinking about those things, you know, I had mentioned earlier in, in our discussion about a difficult claim we had where a person had some pretty severe injuries being thrown out of a vehicle, and you know, we move we paid the cost to move him to a much better hospital, and that was expensive, it's not going to be cheap. But these injuries are so bad, that if we don't get him the best possible care now, we could be paying for it for the next 20 years. And he would be paying for it in his ability to have a good quality of life. So I think there's a lot to think about on outcomes. And you're right, it's something we do every day year round. It's not something that should be it's time for renewals. Let's go ahead and have that claim review or

andrew atkinson:

Right, right. You know, some things that along the way, throughout the years, I've said almost in by accident, or just a normal conversation, but I pay a lot of attention to how people react to as an agent, you want to know, am I seeing things that are landing? Am I seeing things that are resonating or not like a big thing that I started back in 2012 was returned anything because return to work was confusing the physician? Yeah, they'd say, Oh, you hurt your shoulder, you can no longer paint or hang drywall. And I would be the guy saying well return to anything means they don't have to be doing that just anything, anything at all. And then we can keep that worker on payroll, we can keep the worker happy, because they're on payroll, we can keep the insured happy, because that's remaining a medical only claim with the 70% discount. When it first time I said return to anything. I didn't think much of it. But the reaction was so profound that I went online that GoDaddy and I bought that website about the domain returned anything.com. And so I own that now. And then I later on said claims outcomes, because every agent likes to talk about will reduce claims and claims and claims and offer all lines of coverage. And then I started to occur to me, people don't care as much about claims. Of course we care about claims. But we don't care as much about claims as we do the claims outcome can take two different workers with the same broken ankle, and one of them can end up costing $17. And the other one can end up costing $17,000 For the same injury. So it's the outcome of the claim that I'm focused on not the claim itself, which I've already conceded. They're going to happen.

Greg Hamlin:

Yeah.

andrew atkinson:

So what's the outcome of the claim? And that's what I've worked on closely with Natalie, and with Wes and Brandon, you know, is that what's the outcome of this going to be?

Greg Hamlin:

I think that's huge. And I couldn't agree more. One of the trends that we're seeing, and I don't know if Mike sees this, I get an email probably every day from some vendor that's telling me how they can make my life easier by automating things. And so a lot is changing. And I think there can be good things that come with that. Absolutely. I think you've hit on some of those. But have you noticed changes in service from claims related to automation? What's been better? What's been worse, but things out there? Are you seeing that are really great tools? Or what are things that maybe have been lost in that

andrew atkinson:

It's worse 100% of the time.Now, automation, though, that on the surface that covers a wide spectrum, right, so it's not so here's an example of automation, you call a number and they say for English, press one, Spanish press two, that's automation, but that's not a really big deal because it's quick and then you get a person on the line. But another form of automation would be when you're 19 prompts in and you still don't have the person in the recording doesn't know where you're going with it. And that's an automation that would be a complete failure is where the company that's implementing the automation doesn't know where to stop, they're trying so hard to: A save money on wages and B, get the person calling redirected to the right department. But that's no fun for the client. That's no fun for the consumer. And they know that. And so I don't think it's I don't think it's effective, and certainly not in the realm of what we're talking about, which is, I mean, what did I say half an hour ago, with a property loss? You've got ashes, the ashes don't have a story.

Greg Hamlin:

Right? Right.

andrew atkinson:

With workers compensation, you've got a human being, oftentimes with kids oftentimes married, oftentimes with their own version of the story. How do you automate that? I think we're years away from being able to have the artificial intelligence, to be able to understand the tone of voice, the compassion that's needed, even the iambic pentameter in which somebody is talking their anger level to be able to automate that. So I don't think it's possible, I could be wrong, I've been wrong on a few other things. But I don't think it's possible not today.

Greg Hamlin:

Well, you hit on something that drives me crazy, I just got a new head of credit card, and I was trying to get the login, because my wife does all the bills. And she's like, You need to sign in and get the login. So I can take care of this every month. And I was like, Okay, I'll try to do that. And of course, like, everything doesn't work, the passwords not working, nothing's working. So finally, I'm like I'll call. And like, you can't figure out you're like, none of these six choices, actually are the choice that will get me to where I want to go. So I don't know, I'll try this one, and then it circles you back to the main menu again. And like, you ended up doing that a few times. And then eventually, I got a hold of somebody after going through the prompts enough times. And then I talked to that guy for 10 minutes showed him, you know, it was like telling him where I'm clicking what I'm doing. And he's like, you know, what, I really can't help you. I'm gonna have to send you to the next level. And so you know, here I am, half an hour in all I want to do is be able to pay my credit card, it's like, as simple as that. Like, I just want a way to log in and be able to do this. And by the time that's done, I'm so frustrated. And the only thing I can think are negative things about that organization.

andrew atkinson:

Right.

Greg Hamlin:

So it's definitely a challenge.

andrew atkinson:

And what bothers me about that a lot, too, is that the company that has decided to do the automation, they know that it's not any fun for the consumer. And so you typically see that in businesses that have little or no competition. So if a carrier implemented that, they would probably lose a lot of clients pretty fast. And they'd say, that was a bad idea. Because there's other carriers, right? Right. When a hotel does that, they know that they've got such a huge corner on the market that they can get away with that because the choice is to go stay at some hotel you've never heard of in a town where you've never been.

Greg Hamlin:

Yep.

andrew atkinson:

For the firms that have a lot of competition when they implement automation. Will there's a reason they don't, they'll lose customers, because the customers do have a

mike gilmartin:

We're already dealing in a world and work choice. comp, we're not generally having super fun conversations, right? People are hurt people, you're dealing with a lot of different parties. And if you add in that extra layer of frustration of getting to somebody, you're already starting the conversation on the wrong foot right like that person not coming in all excited, like, Oh, hey, how's your day, they're coming in ready to go, because you've made them hit six different prompts and figure out where you are. And I think it goes back to the communication piece we were talking about earlier, in that make it easy for me to work with you, right? At the end of the day, just make it for me to do my normal job, the way I look at it and the way I look at an agency is you have a lot of other things to do. And what my goal is, is to let you do those and not have to worry about this over here. You can if you want to, but I'm going to make this easy for you. And it sounds like that's a perfectly industrial does everything else. But it boils down to that to me of if automation is going to be a good thing. It's a tool, not a replacement. So it's something an adjuster or somebody might use as a tool to help them do certain things. But it's not a replacement for the thought process that goes into it and the conversations that are had, and the relationships that are built off of what we do. Because you really can't replace that. That's a hard thing to do. It's I agree with you next to impossible. So I just think, you know, automation has a place and a time and its purpose. But yeah, your automation set you up to already have an adversarial conversation to begin with. You've already lost.

andrew atkinson:

Yeah, yeah. And I'll say my last part on it just with this. If I'm going to buy tickets to a concert automation is fine. I know where I want to sit, I know the price range that I want to pay, go ahead and send me through all that fine. If I'm talking about somebody who just broke their leg in six places, or he's bleeding out of his ear? And I'm really concerned about this person. Please don't make me go through that. So it depends on the industry. It absolutely depends on the industry.

mike gilmartin:

100%

Greg Hamlin:

I think there's certainly parts of our industry that benefit from it, but they're the things that happen behind the scenes because automation does not work with relationships. They just don't know. So it's got to be the the tasks that are slowing the adjusters down so that hopefully what it's doing is giving back time so that those adjusters can call you can call the injured worker can spend time, if there's some things going on in the background that it can speed up that we're taking their time up. I agree, I don't know that it can substitute in those areas at all. Well, Andrew, I've really enjoyed visiting with you today. One thing I've been doing this season, as I just felt like, you know, post COVID, the world's become pretty polarized in general. And there's a lot of anger and frustration. And I think a lot of that's probably warranted. But one thing I want to do is put some good vibes out in the universe. And so I've been ending each of these episodes with whoever our guest is to ask if, if you don't mind sharing a memory of a time that you were truly happy? And what were you doing and who were you with? So if you don't mind sharing that with us, Andrew, I'd love to hear it.

andrew atkinson:

You're asking a father of a four year old girl and a six month old boy, I spent a lot of my time laughing. I live there. And you know, it's a career, there's always what we do, there's always the little nuances, the paperwork, the the things we have to do, where we're not necessarily in a state of bliss. But as far as overall general happiness, a friend of mine, he's from Michigan, he's a fellow agent, and not in shortcut. But he told me about the book, The Gap in the Game, which is all about, you know, living in the game. So many people we want, we start here, we want to be here. And we spent all the time worrying about how much further we have to go. That's called Living in the gap. You're not happy living. Living in the gain is okay, I still started here. I want to get here. But look at all I've already done so far. And that doesn't mean you're lazy. You're still trying to get to wherever here is using air quotes. Yes, people are listening, but you take time to think about, Okay, I've actually come a long way. And that that puts you in a happy state where happiness to me is not a fleeting moment. It's not a particular beach. It's a way of living. But the one thing that does come to mind is you ask that question, I was last week with my wife at the Masters in Augusta, Georgia. And that was happy. We were very happy. We've been wanting to go there since we got married 12 years ago. And while I live in a general state of contentedness, and fulfillment, and happiness, that was extra happy because we just had an absolute blast.

Greg Hamlin:

That's great.

andrew atkinson:

It was a lot of fun. Amazing.

mike gilmartin:

I've been one time and it's it's unforgettable.

andrew atkinson:

As you're asking that question that was the the immediate thought was the Masters last week with my wife, that's where we were, that's who I was with. But that doesn't mean that I got back from that trip and immediately became unhappy. It's, it's a better way to live. I've found.

Greg Hamlin:

Well, I'll tell you the other night, I guess it was two nights ago, while we were having dinner, I had each of my kids telling me their walk up song if they were a baseball player, and that was a blast. It was the funniest thing. Even my seven year old, you know, it was like my 10 year old as like saying his walk up song would be crazy train with by Ozzy Osbourne like dude, I didn't even know you knew what that was.

andrew atkinson:

Yeah, it's a good one.

Greg Hamlin:

But it's those little moments for sure. And you got to hang on to them and enjoy them. And I think in the episode before this, my host had said the quote, you've got to be where your feet are. And sometimes that's hard to do with phones and everything else is to remember, I think that goes back to your saying about the gap in the game. Yeah, your feet are.

andrew atkinson:

So it's a great, it's a great book. And it just been a long time, but just put you in an area where because we here's the thing, we're never going to finish everything that we're trying to do whether it's per day, per week, per month, right and we're just aren't. So people that I see that are unhappy, they're always thinking about that thing, they still have not yet accomplished. That's living in the gap. And you never in so you live there and you're unhappy and you're rushed and you're hurried. And living the gain is okay, I still have the same I'm not lazy, I still want to accomplish a tremendous amount. But started here now I'm here. Look at all

Greg Hamlin:

I love that. I love that. Wow, Andrew, I really appreciate having you. Always fun to have you along to Mike this that's already been done. You deserve to pat yourself on for the ride. And just remind our listeners that we air these the back and take a little breather and be okay with that, every two weeks and we'd love to have you join us in future episodes. And I'll leave with our little tagline to do right knowing that you're gonna get to the other stuff. So it's more of think differently and don't forget to care. Thanks, guys. a mindset, not a moment.